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#BeyondCOVID Town Hall - USA 04

Updated: Oct 14, 2020

#BeyondCOVID is the new mindset we have all had to adopt… how do we operate in this new changed state? I've gathered together some amazing Design Executives to share what they are doing now and in the coming months to survive and thrive in these difficult times.


Rick Bell - Adjunct Associate Professor at Columbia University NYC

Matteo Bologna - President at Mucca

Melissa Cullens - Founder & CEO of Charette

Dan Formosa - Designer at Dan Formosa!

Lynnette Galloway - Visual Designer at Apple

Turi McKinley - Global Practice Lead and Executive Director, Org Activation at frog design, Inc.

Eddie Opara - Partner at Pentagram

Ronnie Peters - Creative Director at 360 Design & Hyperloop Transportation Technologies

Sean Rhodes - Executive Creative Director at frog

Jay Valgora - Principal at STUDIO V Architecture


Quote Bank:

'Many people don't know the difference between equality and equity' - Eddie Opara
[Equity is] 'the real opportunities that you're providing, the aspects of real fairness and the idea that you're going to lift up people from their particular troubles and from social economic issues and challenges based on aspects of race' - Eddie Opara
[African American communities] 'They're not all the same, at all. We're always treating them like everybody's the same' - Eddie Opara
'It's time for 28th amendment' - Mark Bergin
'In this idea of equity is an idea of ownership…black people don’t have ownership in their own communities' - Lynnette Galloway
‘Let's give them [black people] ownership in their community, you're not going to destroy what you feel like you own, or what you feel like you really have a voice in, right?’ - Lynnette Galloway
‘You can reinvent the service, but if women still don't feel like money is a thing they can have they're not going to come to the service at all’ - Melissa Cullens
‘[Women] don't have a problem with money, money has a problem with [women]’ - Melissa Cullens
‘Having a lot of money does not mean that you have good ideas’ - Melissa Cullens
‘If we can invite more people to the table who have had different experiences of life, we might have a real crack at actually solving this' - Melissa Cullens
‘Are we asking the right questions? Are we asking the right people? Are we building enough empathy?’ - Turi McKinley
‘We are designers, we have the power of our ideas’ - Sean Rhodes
‘People must understand that we're actually clamping the economy by not creating equity’ - Mark Bergin
‘Nothing bad happens when women have more money. I don't know where we got that idea. And nothing bad happens when black people have more money’ - Melissa Cullens
‘Design should be for everybody. It should be accessible. Design for all, don't exclude anyone’ - Dan Formosa


Mark Bergin 0:00

Hi and welcome to the fourth USA Town Hall from DRIVENxDESIGN and Design Exec Club. I'm joined here by a panel of incredible minds and we're going to be talking about- This is like the second episode for the US. When we look back at what we we're doing with #beyondCOVID we were talking about 'well what's your life beyond COVID?'. After we recorded the second USA Town Hall, a couple of days later, we then saw that the Black Lives Matter movement began to raise raise and absolutely cause fury over another death in the US. The last time that we caught up was the third us a town hall. I then asked a bunch of people to help me to understand what that meant from an inequity perspective so we could get some shaping around it. What's interesting, that's also then being amplified not only in the US, but it's happening in the UK, throughout Asia and also in Australia. I reflected on what are the levers that are seeming to be actually helping us to move forward. And it looks like there's social equity, the idea of a sustainable environment, and also a thriving economy. And those three things fight with each other. So our experts are going to talk a bit about that. The first thing I'm going to do though, is go across to you Eddie Opara and actually ask you to help me with some some definitions and help me to understand, because in the pre conversation that we had Eddie brought up a very interesting thing about the difference between equity and the idea of equality. Equity and equality aren't exactly the same thing. So help me understand a bit more about that and also about the shapes of community because I think if we don't understand the shape of need, we can't necessarily get there.

Eddie Opara 1:57

Thanks, Mark. Well, I mean, this has been a very sort of interesting thing that's been on my mind. I fully believe that many people don't know the difference between equality and equity. And the fact is that, you know, with with the idea of equality, you're trying to treat everyone the same, right? And have potentially the same opportunities. But equity has a lot more aspect towards it. It is the real opportunities that you're providing, the aspects of real fairness, and the idea that you're going to lift up people from their particular troubles and from social economic issues and challenges based on aspects of race. I feel as though many do not fully understand the effect that that has, especially within the aspects of community and community building. And so, you can take an aspect of, of gentrification, for example, where gentrification is really the means of - you could say from the point of view of economic means - changing a large area of space majority in a city to change it into your own vision, right. You may think that you are providing a better school or better resources towards the community that was already there. But you're actually not, you're really changing it for your own sake and your own economic value. So you could say, look, I'm not a racist, I'm not a supremacist, I'm in your neighbourhood, I'm living with you, I'm equal to you, but yet you actually literally changing that. You're making it harder for those people to live. Now, I've got to say, I was part of that as well, to be absolutely honest. I moved into Bedford-Stuyvesant, I bought a place, I did it up, I wanted things to change, but then I sort of started realising that you know this is not good. And the fact of the matter is that if we don't fully ascertain the idea of what equity can actually achieve, were at a major loss. We weren't talking about communities, also African American communities, being different. They're not all the same, at all. We're always treating them like everybody's the same. You know, it's like the same profile. It's a little bit like the police. It's like, well, you look like the guy down the road that was running away from us, so we'll go grab you and crush your neck. The fact of the matter is that we cannot treat communities in the same line, there is a diversity within that, within the overarching African American community. And that is an important factor. And so where does one start? Well, you know, you start with the aspects of education. And I'm not going to say I'm jumping here, because it's not so much of a jump, we have to sort of look at things in a very research manner - we need to have targets and indicators to change the way that we're dealing with certain things. So we should actually start to look at the likes of UN sustainable goals, and how the UN sustainable goal system actually tries to really identify the right target, and then indicate the sense of change. And really tackle those things. So if you look at it from the point of view of community, let's say education, right, America can take that as an example: making America sustainable goals. Literally there is an organisation called Future Now, or America's Goals that actually is trying to achieve this. It's not on party lines. They believe that both parties believe in the same principles. So for instance, if you're looking at, I think it's number four on the the sustainable goals list - the 17 sustainable goals in the UN - education or equity of education, right, is incredibly important. And I think that there are five to six steps in regards to achieving that. How does one actually do that? Well, what they're trying to do is ensure and promote the lifelong effort of learning, and uplift communities in this particular way, but at the same time they're doing that they're trying to uplift people out of poverty and figuring out how to do that - targets and indicators. The research is there, right? But we just haven't seen it from the UN. Right? We haven't gone and taken it and utilised it for our own communities, UN has actually laid it out for everybody around the world that this is what we've got to change. There are certain initiatives that are trying to do that, but we're not saying it with one voice. And that is a very, very difficult situation. So if we look at it from the point of view of education, and what education actually means, to many and the diversity of community, we can really move the needle here a long way.

Mark Bergin 8:40

So you've highlighted a really important thing there, which is evidence based practice. Evidence based practice is so important. We know with science that you know, all science has to be evidence based, it has to be peer reviewed.

Eddie Opara 8:59

Yeah but in America right now with Dr. Fauci, nobody really believes him so, you know-

Mark Bergin 9:06

Well, yeah... I am fascinated with the the human behaviours of people who seem to have a greater bond to non-evidence-based simple answers than they do evidence-based complex answers. There's a campaign I'm running which is around 'it's never simple', but what we want in life is that we want to have really simple answers to complex circumstances, it gives us comfort. Comfort food is actually really simple food but actually if you look at it, you shouldn't be having it every day, it should be almost a treat because generally it's stodgy food which is actually just storing a bad fats basically. So, the idea of evidence based practice is really important. But there's another thing behind it, which is that we haven't gotten into the imaginations of people that know uplift is necessary. It's almost from the idea of abundance. Abundance isn't actually the mindset because when things are abundant, you don't mind actually saying 'yeh take a bale of hay for me, I've got lots of them, have some of my oats, I've got lots of them, have some of my education, we've got lots of it'. When you're abundant, you actually don't mind sharing. It's when you don't think that you've got abundance that you wind up actually saying, well, there's reasons I won't give you this. I think that's what we see in every catastrophe or survival movie as people get into this scarcity of I'm just protecting me in mine, rather than we as the greater good there. Dan Formosa I want to throw across to you because you've been a rebel for a couple of decades, I think. I went there one count how many back, but help me out: why do you think that we haven't actually seen more momentum? And that this has been a big idea? What? How come it hasn't changed from the 60s when you would have been marching in the streets and seeing protest? What do you think it is?

Dan Formosa 11:23

Yeah, that topic is fascinating to me that in many ways things have not changed. So many things have over the last 60 years, but some things haven't, and one of those things is attitudes towards race. It is mind boggling that it still exists. It's 60 years later, well longer than 60 years later, 60 years in my lifetime, maybe. But it's mind boggling that it exists. And that itself is a pretty interesting topic. I think the topic there is that we're talking about evidence based approaches, and it's interesting that ideology overrides evidence: a scientific base. Now this is true with religion, right? If you believe in creationism, right? It's so much easier to think oh, yeah, the world was created in seven days, I get that. I don't know if it has something to do with our lack of understanding of science, are we science-phobic or math-phobic or is it just too complex for our brains to to process? That topic itself is totally fascinating. We're looking at lots of pictures of riots and upheaval to the US in the last few weeks, but, boy, you can go back to newsreels or films 60 years ago and it's not a whole lot different.

Mark Bergin 12:54

I'm thinking back to when I saw the rioting squads during the Arab Springs. When they when they got into the parliament houses and they'd overrun the regime and they got into the space that they were trying to bang on the door and say we're going to take over the parliament. But they had nothing to do when they got there. It was almost embarrassing. The only thing they could do was trash the place. And the same thing happened in Hong Kong only a couple of years ago. People had this momentum like, yeah, we've got to go and fight against the wrong, and when they got there, they didn't know what to do. And and I wonder if we're seeing the same thing happening with these, with these outbursts of energy in the protests, because I think actually my take from a fire is that there's been more protests in the last month than there has been riots. And so the riots might have been an initial energy release, but the protests about Black Lives Matter... is there a next Chapter? That to me is very interesting because I think to what Eddie was speaking about, there's a difference between equality and equity. There's a difference in the communities. We came together with the energy of 'something's not right'. But do we know what to do next? That to me is the missing part is what do you do next? Has that been kind of a pattern Dan? That you're seeing these protests run out because they don't have a direction of what they're trying to achieve?

Dan Formosa 14:27

I think so. I think there are a lot of movements that don't have a step two. There is no longer range plan, other than let's change something, but the strategy of how to change that, or what to do next, boy, I think you could probably go back and list a whole number of movements, like maybe Occupy Wall Street, or nuclear disarmament and just see where it went. Just the whole peace movement, is there a longer range plan that beyond the protest?

Mark Bergin 15:04

Okay, to help us frame what we're talking about here, I want to go put a step two in there. It's actually the idea of 'it's time for 28'. It's time for 28th amendment. I don't actually care what's the 28th amendment, but it's time for 28th amendment because we kind of know the 13th sucks, I think that's the technical term. You know, the 13th amendment is just broken. It doesn't apply for today. It's actually at the root of many of the issues that we're seeing. So, as a group, how many steps are there to get to the idea that there's a 28th amendment? In my mind you've got to turn around and say, well, we need some politicians to go actually vote, and it's got to get through Congress and the Senate. Before that, they have to draft it before that they need to know that they've been elected to do this, which is referred to as a mandate in most parts of the world. Then you need the people to go vote. Before that you need them to understand that they have a voice. And before that, they need to understand that there's a big idea that they need to get some momentum behind. As a set of designers, you know, there's five stages in there, and if you don't get it done soon, you've got to wait another four years until you get another crack at this. And I find that really interesting, because then we've got a temporal aspect and we know that great projects have time constraints. We also know that there's an identified objective, it's not party bias, you've got to have both both sides of the political spectrum to actually support an amendment to go through otherwise you don't get your 75% together. So as we get further in the call, I want to actually see if that focus can help us to work out how to get that significant uplift to make sure that we're getting rid of something which is just broken, and that it also might be causing some of the inequality that exists. If we look at healthcare, there's so much effort now put into things like pancreatic cancer or breast cancer or prostate cancer. But that's actually a 1% health problem. The way that we stopped 90% of the people who were dying in the world was we had sanitation, we taught them how to wash hands. It's interesting, basic sanitation has done more to save lives than cancer treatment ever will, just because of numbers. I think the idea of actually correcting that 13th amendment gives an indication of this wholesale uplift that we get. Then we have to get into, as Eddie was indicating, the different stratas - there's different groups in the communities, and we might get down to some of the smaller percentages which are equally as important as cancer research in cancer solutions. Lynnette I want to get across to you because last time we spoke you were in San Francisco and now you have a couple of months in Chicago?

Lynnette Galloway 18:05


Mark Bergin 18:06

Southside of Chicago?

Lynnette Galloway 18:11

South suburbs of Chicago, yeah.

Mark Bergin 18:13

Okay. So the southside of Chicago. I think I saw a couple of smiles there and I think I've just triggered something like, 'oh, that Australian doesn't understand southside means something in particular, but that's okay'. So, I'm going to tell you a little story about about my experience in Chicago. I was staying out in one of the suburbs and I was driving to the McCormick Center, and I saw on the map that I could take a shortcut. So I took the shortcut, got off the expressway, and then all of a sudden, I'm surrounded with a police car in front of me and a police car behind and they're on their loudspeaker saying 'do not get out of the car! We will guide you out of here.' I'm going, what the hell, where am I? Okay, I'm not feeling particularly safe now. That was twenty years ago and we know that there's been some economic prosperity there. I want to focus on this because there's also the pace or haste of the economic uplift that's taking place in the Southside of Chicago. Later on, I'm going to go talk with Jay Valgora about what's happening in some of the projects that he's working on, which are actually about giving economic uplift and restoring communities. Because one of the inequalities is that maybe we talk about Chicago improving but it might be improving at 20 miles an hour, whereas the projects in New Yorker are going 100 miles an hour, just as an as a comparison, and the same in Detroit. But you're there within an environment where you've seen how it has evolved. When we have our pre conversation, you spoke very fondly like 'yeh, things are moving, things are changing.' Are they changing fast enough? Or are they actually changing at a rate where there is some comfort but it's not necessarily getting to the equality where everybody's actually in the same bracket.

Lynnette Galloway 20:06

Yes. So one of the things that has been kind of pressing on my mind, just even listening to Eddie talk, in this idea of equity is an idea of ownership. I think that one of the things... I'm just thinking about how Chicago is one of the most segregated cities in America, you know, we have our north side, which is mostly whites, Southside which mostly black, East-West, and then you know, you have your suburban areas. Because of that a lot of the institutions are crafted to deal with people in their areas, right? So, Southside you're gonna get a lot of cops. I've certainly had four cops come up to my car, after coming from a dance party one time for no reason but the fact that I had like dark windows. I'm also reflecting on when the riots started, when the marches started, when the looting started, and a lot of people here were very upset because they felt like people were destroying their own community. And I remember watching this girl and I remember her name, I think it's Kimberly, who went on kind of a rant, and she was talking about the fact that black people don't have ownership in their own communities. And so one of the things, I think Eddie mentioned something about gentrification, right? So there's this idea, I think, that most black people are from the inner city. I'm not from inner city, not all blacks- it is sort of like that's where we're always placed - 'Oh, we always come from the inner city', and gentrification is really about bringing white people in and making it all better, rather than really appreciating black people for the culture that they bring to their own community, giving them the resources or even allowing them to create their own community. I think about Tulsa, Black Wall Street, how that was destroyed, you know, here you have thriving black businesses, these people certainly invest in their communities and develop restaurants and shops and all of this, and get it gets destroyed. So it's kind of like if you don't give people the resources to get the education that they need, or have the money that they need, the economy that they need, or the police thing that happens in their community is really about putting them in their place, rather than being part of that community - that's part of the issue with the police right now, they're not part of the black community. They don't want to really work with us, they want to just put us in our place and make sure that we stay in line. That's not helping us, again, to have ownership in our own spaces. So I think that when we talk about these communities getting better in Chicago, my thought is well, let's give them ownership in their community, you're not going to destroy what you feel like you own, or what you feel like you really have a voice in, right? You're gonna want to keep it up. You know, just like your own home, when you own your home, you want to keep that up. If you're in somebody else's house, you may trash it, you know, I'm at home with my mother right now, like my room may not be as clean but you better believe in my place in San Francisco it's pristine. So how do we really uplift people in these communities to really feel like they have a voice and they are part of the creation of their own community and they have ownership in it. And it's not about just putting an Obama library there, which is great, it's beautiful, but that doesn't solve the problem. That's just like another statue, another institution. Allow them to really have ownership in their spaces and really drive their own economy. That is my thought.

Mark Bergin 24:04

So Melissa, I'm gonna try to you very quickly here. I'm interested in when you were at Ellevest where you worked on what happens when women have more equity in the investment and financial products. What happens to a woman when she actually goes to own her own home rather than turning around and just renting her home? What happens in the economic cycle there?

Melissa Cullens 24:34

I just became a homeowner and for sure Lynnette, everything you just said is exactly right - Ownership changes your mindset. And there's another aspect of the work at Ellevest that we did where we really were working to change. Yes, the investment system was not created by any women at all, so reinventing what that looked like and how that felt, I think made it more inclusive by by virtue of just simply having women at the table making decisions, offering perspectives, bringing their lived experiences in, was a big part of reimagining that. In terms of changing, you know, you can reinvent the service, but if women still don't feel like money is a thing they can have they're not going to come to the service at all. There was a lot of work, really just around saying, you know, 'you don't have a problem with money, money has a problem with you.' And I think that is such a big opportunity for us in terms of getting to equity, to really understand that not every person is coming to the table with the same background, with the same information, with the same wealth. By providing the resources and systems that enable ALL of the great ideas to be able to come to fruition to succeed in the world, I think we are reminded on a daily if not hourly basis that having a lot of money does not mean that you have good ideas. So if we can get more of that wealth and more of education into more hands, into more different experiences. There's so many leaders who have so much to offer who have lived in these different lives than than the people who are making so many of the big innovations in the world. I mean, I love amazon prime as much as the next person but is free two day shipping really like the most innovative thing we've got? I think we can do better. And I think if we can invite more people to the table who have had different experiences of life, we might have a real crack at actually solving this.

Mark Bergin 26:49

I do love that idea of inviting more people to the table. I'm not sure if any of you have heard the Camper story about every every meeting that Camper Shoes, has, they have an empty seat at the table and that's to remind them that they're there for the customers who don't have a voice in that form. And I think that's really interesting. Imagine if we were thinking that there's a couple of empty slots here on this Town Hall, and that they're the voices that we're talking to. To go back to your point, Eddie, that would mean that we'd have to have half a dozen different voices for the personas of those different types of community. And we're still being inconsiderate when we go to do that. But I do want to then move across to Turi, because Turi, I know that you and I have had conversations before about your life journey when you were at MIT, and you did some fantastic projects, but what he realised was that the design came a little bit too late in the project. There were these brilliant, brilliant innovations that people had been involved in, but design came too late in the equation and so the things stalled or stumbled because of that. Help the rest of us to understand why that's important to go get those values about being human-centred to actually get the design perspective in early.

Turi McKinley 28:09

Oh yes, that was a good conversation Mark. I think this idea of when design should come to the table is one that we've actually talked about a lot in design, around design's ability to frame the problem well, and use empathy to see where before something's built, what the gap might be between those who are building and those who are using might be. The example from way back when that got me into design was kind of realising the pain of trying to fix that interface when design has been brought in too late. I think fundamentally the value that design brings to the table is both that ability to frame the problem in a way that reframes the need, much like Melissa, you were saying about how there's something kind of fundamental about having women involved in the design process for financial services. But that isn't enough, you need to get to that moment where you ask 'what is the problem we need to reframe so that there is access?'. And then you know the value that design also brings to the table is not just the reframe, but the ability to take the reframe out of just words and thoughts into something that's tangible, into action, into something that might be built, made or experienced. But I had a conversation actually, earlier today around the question of human centred design and the idea of empathy that kind of underlays much of what we're talking about when we ask how can we reframe the problem to look at it in a new way. There's kind of an assumption that we are able to do that, to look and to understand people in a new way and use that understanding to make something better, to reframe the problem in a way that will let us take effective action. And I think the thing that I got out of the conversation I had earlier, around this current environment that asks us to look at that sort of fundamental hope or belief that we have around the expertise that we have just designers may have built in design, and ask ourselves, perhaps to Eddie's point, are we asking the right questions? Are we asking the right people? Are we building enough empathy? As a design consultant, we tend to talk to very few people in order to build empathy. But are we perhaps needing to open the aperture of what we're asking? You know, Mark, you brought up earlier in your question about the 28th amendment right? You referenced 13th, the Netflix documentary? And what did that do for you? That opened your eyes to something new. So perhaps, if you said there are five steps, perhaps the 13th is the first step because it built a broader understanding it built some awareness. I think for myself, I still believe that design needs to come in early into the process, but I think it becomes important for us to look at the methods and the expertise that we've built and that we kind of rely on our own underlying assumptions about how in order to do this better.

Mark Bergin 32:05

So what I want to do now is I want to throw across to my Matteo and Sean and I want you both to come and try to help me here. I've got the idea that I've got the 13th - so thank-you Turi that we've got there a lightning rod, there's a starting point - and I want to go and see if we can get people to love the idea. We need the public to go do three things: We need them to actually get the big idea; We need them to understand their voice; we need to get them to vote. And then we hand it over to the politicians. When they've got the vote, they've then got to go and actually get across the line and get themselves elected and then I have to go make sure that the 28th comes around. So Matteo and Sean, help me out here, we need to turn around and get people to watch the 13th and understand that their voice matters and that they can make a difference. Matteo is just a nice logo and some type that you're doing here is a more thinking behind this?

Matteo Bologna 32:59

Of course. There is current custom typeface that you decide to make for that project, and that's it!

Mark Bergin 33:08

No, no, we need to get deep, because I know that with Mucca that you've actually had great- listeners and viewers here, Matteo and I did a podcast, we'll put a link in, where he talks about his own journey from turning-in to actually looking at creating even more value out of a brief. So let's get into the more value out of the brief.

Matteo Bologna 33:29

Yeah, it's very difficult, the distance between the moment that you go to vote until something happens, it's so big that the question is, there must be some answer on how to convince the person tp vote now and see that there is an effect in the future. I think is the same problem that you have when you start thinking about your diet, it's so far away the result, the ending, that you need to try to make it tangible. So probably you have to figure out some smart idea, maybe some kind of like old fashioned advertisement, like they were doing in the 60s where there's some kind of pay-off or some slogan that really makes you think, oh, wow, if I do this, actually, there's a result.

Mark Bergin 34:37

Okay, so I'm going to see - and I can see Eddie you're smiling here, so your mic should be open and Sean I want your mic open. Come on, let's be brave and show you how we actually make the sausages here. So we've got to go give people an idea. We know that Melissa said that Amazon Prime delivery in two days is fantastic. I think there is an Amazon now as well, which was delivery even before you thought of the order, how do we get people excited? How do we get them to go and actually say, I want this thing? Is that we have to go polish it up and put it in front of them, or do you think the idea is big enough or is it just too hard?

Sean Rhodes 35:14

I'm going to quote a guy, a brilliant man who said that his slogan is, and I can't remember specifically what it was, but 'it's not that simple'. Didn't somebody really smart say that recently?

Mark Bergin 35:27

I think I did. Yeah.

Sean Rhodes 35:29

But you know, I think you know, it is a layered problem. It is really complex when you're when you're moving into thinking about impacting spaces like this. And similarly, I think to Matteo's journey, I had a very similar journey. Thinking about my role as a designer - I'm trained as a graphic designer - and saying, well what do I want to do with my time, my energy in the world? Creating beautiful things is wonderful, creating business value out of that is really important to me, but is that enough? And that's part of what drove me to frog. We were definitely commercial enterprise, and not to say that we aren't, but social impact work is a big part of what we do and we really fight hard for those projects externally because we're very competitive. And then when we win those projects, the fur really flies for people participating in them. We've worked with the UN, we've had the opportunity to work with organisations like MasterCard on economic equality throughout the world. But I think one in particular that I always come back to is local. And we're working with Robin Hood, not the app that Melissa was referring to before, but the Robin Hood nonprofit, which I think is famously taken from the rich of Wall Street and gone and twisted their arms to donate and eradicate poverty within New York City. We had a really amazing opportunity to work with them. And they were really focused on a part of their fund, it's called Fuel and it's really focused on educational development. We engaged with them to help us design research, to use co-creation, to help them figure out how to better orient their investments inside of communities in New York, in places like the South Bronx, in places like Brownsville, like Bedford Stuyvesant. We went in and we worked with community organisations and parents in those places to figure out a couple of things - what are some of the underlying issues that we could affect and what are the parents' and families' perspectives, so that they could be co creators in that process? And we found two major things and one of them is not rocket science, but I think it's important and worth saying: a big part of the fundamental struggle for people in those communities is it's not about parenting, it's about poverty. Poverty is a much bigger, all encompassing thing and it's the context that needs to be considered. Then I think the other piece was really being able to work with those families, those individuals to understand what their their goals were for parenting. Similar to I think, in financial services, the goals-based perspective was really helpful. So by working with Robin Hood and their investment fund, by using some of the co-creation and design research activities that that we do to figure out good ways for Robin Hood to direct their investment, I think it was a really successful effort and really eye opening and helpful for us. I think another thing that we took away is, you know, we really challenged oursleves. We found ourselves being challenged to think about design, to think about the context that we were designing in, from really tactical stuff to thinking about how mainly very privileged people that have been able to go to university, who have been going been able to go to design school, who have worked in a corporate context, are coming in as designers and collaborators with people of colour in those communities and collaborating with them collaborate with those community organisations. We did a lot of things that were not that great, right? We learned a lot from it and we were really challenged through that process. Even things like when we were recruiting families and participants to join with us, we were really struggling using some of our typical methods and someone had a great idea, it was in the middle of summer, they realise that at New York City pools, they shut them down for an hour to do pool cleaning and that many of the families that are in there go and stand outside and wait to come in. So our design teams went and that's how they met people, that's how they start to build those relationships, and build the trust to engage some of the folks in those communities. So I think things like that are really inspiring and they connect the dots through a lot of different levels. You have an organisation that's deploying capital to drive change, you're working with community groups that cover the broader swath at a municipal level, and then you have individual families. I think that ability to connect through all those levels, made that situation successful. I think Mark, similarly, if we want to get the the American public excited about something, moving and making policy at the federal level, we would have to work through a similar kind of altitude, you know, much bigger because we're talking bigger than New York, but how do we activate and create through all those levels?

Matteo Bologna 40:48

Starting local.

Mark Bergin 40:50

Starting local, yeah, okay. So what's really interesting here is as we've begun to dig in, we've begun to look in, and Sean, that's fantastic, there's a message there, there's some tactics there, there's a campaign, it needs to have some capital behind it, it isn't just the idea. If I think about the music industry, the music industry would say, look, we've got a feeling this beat style is going to come through, but we'll give it to 100 artists and we'll see which one goes to the top of the charts. I think if we go think through the design community it is going to be Matteo, as you said, starting local, it's actually having people actually start to go put a similar message into the community. But it needs to be an idea that's worth following. In Australia, we have actually what was referred to as a peaceful revolution in the early 70s. And the campaign behind that was 'Its time'. And that's all it was, was it's time it's time for change. It's time for whatever you actually are dissatisfied with. It's time that they've stopped. It's time that we actually move forward. It was interesting, because it was a universal hook that people get into. It wasn't It's time for Black Lives Matter. It wasn't It's time to stop gun violence. It's not it's time to go and put in our candidate. It's not time to get rid of the other, the other candidate, it just was, it's time. And it was a big idea that actually galvanise people together. And you know, if you're thinking about trying to excite the imaginations of people, the best thing is that you can actually use their imagination and put your concept on top of it. So what I do want to do is go across and have a chat to Jay, we are just going to shift gears here a little bit. Jay I wanted to talk to you about some of the master plan projects and the site, the reimagining of the built space if you've been involved in, because what interests me with that is you've got to go and actually deal with people who are in the top 10, top 20% of that of that project, which is actually where there's a lot of profit. That profit is then used to go and actually help support the lower 20% to make the economics work for the project. So you're not just building sites which are just for the well to do. You've also got the social and inclusive housing that's in there. So help me understand about how do you get an idea like that to float? I think some of it comes from legislation that is a mandatory requirement. But some of the developments you're involved in actually that the expert in creating community, I think a story or is one of them. There's a couple of others that you've got, helped me understand a bit about that.

Jay Valgora 43:20

Sure well I feel lucky with our firm STUDIO V, we're really attracted to and we work on all the leftover spaces of the city. We tend to get hired when people have an edge, and unoccupied place, an abandoned place, something next to a highway, a waterfront, a ruined industrial site, abandoned buildings. So what's exciting for me is, and these sites are often large, they could be multiple acres, they could be really prominent, many of them have problems, and so when we come in, we have the opportunity to build whole new sections of the community, to reconnect communities that are often divided by infrastructure by misguided efforts by urban renewal, by highways or other things that actually divided communities back in the 60s and 70s, old Robert Moses projects, abandoned in the street and so forth. So in that case, we're lucky that we're not really just coming in as we were talking earlier, and kind of gentrifying a neighbourhood but we have this place where we can make a big impact, where we are not displacing people. And then as you said, a lot of times there is an opportunity where often we're hired by developers, they want to make money, just going to be honest about that. They're not hiring us because they want to do social good, although even they've been affected by what's happening in New York, and they feel it and they feel the sea change, and they're engaging too. So then we work with city agencies, we work with public groups, we work with the community. Like Lynnette was saying, we have to engage with the committee, we have to work with them, they have to tell us what they're interested in in their community. And so we're trying to work between these things and one of the funny things about architects, I mean Rick would know this, we all think we can change the world because we're designing stuff. As designers we all want to make the world better. But we can only do what we can do, given our circumstances. But, it feels like for us, for our firm, we feel lucky that we're kind of in this interesting place now, where suddenly you have developers that have money, they want to deploy it, but they need help. There's really and a feeling of change right now. You have city agencies who have legislation that are promoting things like, if we're going to rezone a site, and we're going to create wealthy housing, we also are going to create social housing. And now suddenly, we find ourselves even though we don't have any power at all - we are designers, we have the power of our ideas. Suddenly, we find ourselves in negotiating between these forces where we are saying listen, guys, you're not going to get your project approved unless we're going to build a public park. You've got to give up part of your land for a school, a public school. We're going to build 30% social housing, but how are we going to build that? Do we need senior housing? Do we need lower income housing? Do we need housing for homeless people? Because there's a lot of different constituencies even for social housing. Or do we need workforce housing, you know, for people that are just working regular jobs. And by the way, for each community there's a different debate. There's very different desires, whether it's South Brooklyn, or Astoria Queens, or Dumbo, or Coney Island, very different desires from each of those communities. They're not the same, even though they're all in New York City. So we find it pretty exciting, suddenly we're negotiating between these different parties. We have to really listen to the community to find out what they want, and to do our best to kind of bring that to life and create a vision that actually unifies these groups, that in fact are often fighting with each other or have competing agendas and give them something to rally around. That's a big part.